On airships and paper airship modelling

[Bengt Fred]

Hi Charles,

I am a Swedish modeller, who quite recently have re-discovered card modelling. In November 2005, by pure chance, I discovered the fast-growing community of card modelling enthusiasts all over the world. Since then I haven´t been doing anything else - I´m hooked!
There is inexhaustible supply of free downloadable models of high quality of almost every variety, except perhaps airships.
However, there are a few for sale (very inexpensive) from this source:
http://www.fiddlersgreen.net
-for example the Nobile airship "Norge".
Other than that, the best (online) suppliers for card model airships are:
Schreiber-Bogen/Aue Verlag in Germany, some printed in silver and some smaller (1:400) on aluminium foil card stock ("Schwaben, Graf Zeppelin, Hindenburg") and Papmobil (LZ-126 "Los Angeles", the forerunner of "Graf Zeppelin").
From this supplier:
http://www.moduni.de/
I ordered "Los Angeles" and the LZ-120 "Bodensee/ Nordstern".
ALL these models are in the same scale - 1:200, which seems to have become a standard for card model airships. This makes them quite large:
the "LZ-127 Graf Zeppelin" by Schreiber-Bogen, which I have almost completed is 1 meter 18 centimeters in length, and the "LZ-129 Hindenburg" (my next project) will be even longer (and higher), about 1 meter and 30 centimeters.
I have also the card model of the "Cargo Lifter CL 160" - the most recent huge cargo airship project, which sadly ran out of financiers as the giant hanger was finished just outside Berlin. It is today an adventure swimming facility and amusement park for kids! This model is huge, measuring 1 meter and 35 centimeters in length!
In the US, the new rigid AEROSCRAFT airship project is under way, with the goal set for 2007 for a giant flying luxury airliner!
So, rigid airships are not gone and forgotten forever, it seems, and the fascinating history lingers on. It´s a pity, though, that so many of them are gone - Riechsminister Hermann Goering, the stupid fool, ordered the complete destruction (there were blown up by the military, the Zeppelin people refused) of the beautiful LZ-127 "Graf Zeppelin" and LZ-130 "Graf Zeppelin II"- the sister ship to the "Hindenburg", to use the precious aluminium for Stuka and Messerschmitt fighters! However, now in the 21st century, the old Zeppelin-Reederei is up and running again at Lake Constance/ Bodensee in Friedrichshafen with regular tourist tours over Lake Constance with their new fleet of (three!) new-technology (helium-filled) rigid Zeppelin dirigibles, and there is also a grand Zeppelin-museum with a giant scale replica of the passenger decks of the LZ-129 "Hindenburg". I sure would like to visit it and take a trip in one of the new Zeppelins!

What a great idea with an Airship Forum! I´ll visit often! Best of luck!

Take care, Charles!
Cheers from the new member,
Bengt Fredén in Stockholm:cheers:

[Charles Adams]

Welcome aboard! Glad to have you with us! :) I am anxious to try a paper model myself. I don't particularly like the simpler ones that approximate the shape of the hull using a series of truncated cones. I am, however, most curious to see how the more advanced types look (the ones which use a series of "gores" -- long, thin strips -- to more accurately depict the true shape of the hull).

[Bengt Fred]

Hi Charles,

Using truncated paper cones to build paper airships is hitherto the standard solution, as far as I know. If you are very careful and do a good job of it, it´s possible to create an almost seamless hull, especially if you´re building in 1:200 scale.
All edges will of course have to be painted, using appropriate water colours, colour pencils or used marker pens, to avoid white paper joints - this is standard card modelling proceedure.

Check in on Ralph Currell´s site. He has got three very nice FREE downloadable models; the British R-100, the R-101 and the Vickers Transoceanic London - New York airship project from 1919, which was (sadly) never realized. This would have been an elegant luxury Oceanic liner with three spacious passenger compartments including two in open-air, rivalling the best Zeppelins of the period, had it been built (see 2nd attached thumbnail below!).
These models are smaller in scale but can of course be enlarged (which some modellers already have - refer to the picture page!), due to the museum quality of Currell´s models. He has also got models of a very fine mooring mast and a Cardington airship shed with doors, interior walls and a base:

http://www.currell.net/models/mod_free.htm

This site (from Norbert Maier, Germany) is also a good source for airship (and balloon) models. It´s written in both German and English:

http://www.airship-model.com/

BTW, yesterday I found a site promoting a small "Graf Zeppelin" made from thin photo-etched steel parts - see the first attached photo below.
The last two attached thumbnails show the planned new-tech AEROSCRAFT luxury airliner and the current NT (New Technology) Zeppelins.

Up, up and away!
Bengt :)

[Digger]

Hi, this is my first post, i just wanted to put my two cents in on the subject of paper airships. I have built the Norge from fiddlers green, and despite the somewhat inaccurate fitting of the parts, it looks really good from any distance other than right up close. The R-100 and R-101 from Curell also look great, even though they are at 1/700 scale. if carefully put together a paper kit can look great. I am currently in the process of putting together the Macon, and soon will start on some others, including the Screiber kit of the Hindenburg, which has the strip method on the nose and tail sections, so illlet you know how it turns out, or post some pics if you like. thanks for the great site by the way, its hard to find good information specifically related to airship modelling, im sure ill be sticking around and contributing. :cheers:

[Bengt Fred]

Hello Digger,

Yes, the Norge is quite a little gem! And Ralph Currell´s models are very accurate indeed, little masterpieces - I plan on enlarging them (to A3 size - 297 by 420 mm), especially the Vickers Transoceanic Airship from 1919 that never was built - a fantastic design, way ahead of it´s time.

It will be very interesting to hear (and see? - please post some photos) how your build is advancing - my "LZ-129 Hindenburg" is still unbuilt, though I have cut out all the parts.
After that, I´m going to build the "LZ-120 Bodensee" and the LZ-126 Los Angeles", when time allows.

Good luck - I have heard that this model is a little tricky to build. I think it might be good to laminate the internal formers to heavy card stock on a model of this size to get a sturdy model - I did it on the "LZ-127 Graf Zeppelin" with very good results.

Bengt Fredén, Stockholm, Sweden :)

[Digger]

It definitely looks like its going to be tricky, yes. I intend to build a few more paper zeps before tackling it, mostly because of the sheer size of the finished model, also because the more familiar I am with similar methods i become, the easier the more advanced models will be. as far as strengthening the internal formers goes, the instructions for the model I have states on the sheets for the formers to glue to cardboard (included with the parts sheets). This seems quite adequate for strength.

I find it interesting that the model is so detailed, all the internal structure being printed on the reverse side of the hull pieces, the wonderfully detailed lounge/interior section, even the gasbag with the mechanic standing in the opening (by the way I have no idea where that is supposed to go, though i assume it would be in the front most section, so that lowering the forward gangplank shows off this detail? once I start putting it together im sure it will be obvious, though it is the only part that doesnt have a number) I plan on cutting out all the windows to show off the interior, and will likely use cellophane to cover them (keeps out the dust). I will definately post pictures once I begin, which may be a month or more, as I'd like to put together the LZ-1, L-59(Afrikaluftschiff), and L-48 first, though I am getting anxious to see it built so it may be sooner.

[Digger]

just thought id put a pic of my latest model up, the L-59, completed it last night. gave up on the Macon for a while...just felt the urge to do a german zep.:cheers:

[Charles Adams]

Nice! What scale and overall size is it? :)

:cheers:

[Bengt Fred]

Hi Digger,

Beautiful work!
These paper models require a lot of attention to detail and some precise cutting and careful assembly.
Is it in the common 1:200 scale, by Schreiber-Bogen, by any chance?

Best,
Bengt :cheers:

[Digger]

this one is by JSC, its in 1:400 scale, 54 cm long.

[Bengt Fred]

Hi Digger,

OK, I see. It looks bigger on your picture. Very nice indeed.
JSC makes very fine card models - I have thought about ordering the "RMS Titanic" from them, but that?s another story . . .

Cheers,
Bengt :cheers:

[Digger]

Hey all, just finished this one yesterday, its the Screiber kit of the Scwaben, 1:200 scale, 64 cm long. I have to say i'm quite happy with this one, except for the nose cone, which is far too conical. I may build it again, with a different method for the nose, and add some elevator and rudder wheels in the forward control car, but for now it looks good hanging next to my others. the seams in the pictures are quite noticable, though not so obvious in real life. I used magnets to mount it, so as not to punch holes in the hull, two glued to the inside, and two jewelry magnets for the fishing line to attach to.
:cheers:

[Charles Adams]

Nice! I didn't know anyone made a kit of this ship. Is it still available?

:cheers:

[Bengt Fred]

Hi Digger,

You have done a beautiful job on this model - it?s the first modeller?s build I have seen of this new model, which was introduced by Schreiber in the beginning of 2006, along with the new tall model of the Empire State Building.
The two British Vickers?ships in the background, R-100 and R-101, are also very beautiful.
The "Schwaben" is an interesting ship, which flew on it?s maiden voyage in 1911. In only one year, 4,354 passengers travelled with her on no less than 224 successful flights, making her one of the most successful airship liners ever.
Charles,
This model is available from Schreiber-Bogen/Aue-Verlag, in M?ckm?hl, Germany. It can be ordered over the web from http://www.moduni.de/

Keep up the good work, Digger - I?m way behind on my airships . . .

Cheers,
Bengt :cheers:

[Bengt Fred]

While on the subject of http://www.moduni.de/ :

They still have copies of the world´s largest card model of an airship project (in 1:200 scale) on a special offer for only 9,99 €uros. When assembled, it measures 1 meters 36 centimeters - that makes even the LZ-129 "Hindenburg" look small!
This huge freighter airship was never completed, because the backers withdrew from the project, but the giant hanger stands completed outside Berlin - it is today a children´s amusement park, with pools that have real ocean waves.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/Bengt123/CargoLifterCL160.jpg

I bought one copy a while ago (while it´s still available) and I can really recommend it - it´s quite large, bulky and heavy, because the thick cardboard needed for strengthening the big hull is supplied in the "book".


Best,
Bengt :cheers:

[Charles Adams]

Aha! So it's new. Buyers in the US can get just about any paper model available here:

http://www.papermodels.net/

They are located in Oregon.

[Bengt Fred]

Hi Charles,

Yes, that is a well-known distributor/retailer of fine card models. However, it seems that they don?t have the "Schwaben" at present:
http://papermodels.net/catalog/index.php?cPath=20_26

But they do have a lot of the other Zeps, and the CargoLifter CL 160 . . .

Cheers,
Bengt :cheers:

[Charles Adams]

Actually, they do. Their site is extremely disorganized, though, so I'm not surprised you didn't find it. I had trouble as well.

I can't quite understand their logic! They have an online catalog and a separate printed catalog -- on two different sites! And, both are not in synch with each other which amazes me. The printed catalog section has a "Catalog Updates" area which is where the Schwaben is listed -- and misspelled!

It's amazing they can keep an operation going with such a mess. I guess they are too busy selling things to come up with a better system!

They should have a master online catalog of everything which should be kept up to date by the minute. Then if they choose to do a printed version that should be available as a PDF download from the same place, with the latest updated pages in PDF format.

It really looks as if they have always been paper-based and added the online version as an afterthought -- in this day and age, it should be the other way around!

[Digger]

That's where I usually get my paper models, though I ended up ordering from a canadian supplier for the Schwaben...couldn't find it in their catalog.. I suppose that someday they may get it all straigtened out. I didn't even realize this one was that new. by the way there is a model I,m looking for that so far I have only seen at the Zeppelin Museum store. The LZ-4, its a reproduction of a period cardmodel, and having seen a built model on some german site, I really would like to have it. I tried ordering from the museum shop, but it seems that prepaid credit cards are unreliable in overseas transactions. If anyone finds it on another site, please let me know.

[Charles Adams]

Please let me know what you find. I ordered the LZ-4 from the Zeppelin Museum Shop and they cancelled, stating the item was out of stock. I have not heard from them since!

And I am still looking for their book on LZ-4 which I have not been able to find anywhere. I imagine it can still be found in Germany, but I don't know anyone over there who can look for me.

If this book is anything like the one they did on LZ-2, it will have all kinds of great photos and reference material.

[zoomar]

So far, I have tried my hand with the Schreiber "L13" and "Hindenburg", the Papmobil "Los Angeles" and an Akron by a US designer whose name I do not remember. I have an "LZ120" and "Graf Zeppelin" in 1/200 awaiting the time.

These were my very first attempts paper card modeling and, unfortunately the results show. I built the "Los Angeles" straight from the book and failed to take the effort to correct some easily correctable crudities in the original kit. But it looks good. The L13 was great, however, easily the best one of the lot - also with a tiny biplane to boot. Like others, I had problems with the huge Hindenburg. The hull sections were difficult to fit together well, and the final results looks a little, er... rough. Only after reading an earlier post have I figured out what the little guy in the axial gangway is for, too late. This kit did include a lot of details which are virtually or completely hidden upon completion. The Akron was surprisingly nice for a small publisher, although it was disappointing to see that one had to color the insignia and tiny F9C fighter.

Oddly, I think paper does a pretty good job simulating the loose fabric look apparent on some pictures and somehow helps show these craft as the light and fragile creations they were..

[Digger]

Hi guys, just finished putting together the Macon. Not the cleanest model I've done, mostly due to the parts not fitting as they should, but it looks great hanging up. the sparrowhawk on the trapeze came out real nice. It took me four hours just to do the plane. I'll take a close up of it later and post it, for now I just wanted to show it off. And while I know I should probobly be posting these in the models thread, it seems this thread has become the official paper model thread...sooo. heres a pic. :cheers:

oh..it's 1:350 scale, 27 inches long.

[zoomar]

Looks good. I posted my Akron/Macon on another thread, but ours are about alike. Just for fun, I cut out the control car and emergency control station windows on mine and slapped together a simple hanger interior. I had visions of making several copies of the F9C sheets and putting several planes in the hanger on the monorails, but got impatient. You are right, the F9Cs are surprisingly good looking, although I did not like the fact one had to color them oneself. Not having the pre-printed roundel insignia on the hull was also a bummer. Paper is to thick for a glued-on insignia to look right.

[Bengt Fred]

Digger,

Looks VERY good . . .

Amazing job,
Bengt :cheers:

[Digger]

Yeah, I thought about cutting the windows out too, as for the hangar thats a good idea..wonder how hard it would be to cut out door, and insert pieces like a ship in a bottle. I briefly remember seeing yours in another thread, unfortunately I cannot seem to find it now, did you post a pic with the hangar visible? If not can you post one here? closeups would be good. :D
By the way a trick I read about on some site about papercraft (probly 4chan) suggested using superglue to solidify small parts. I tried this method on the sparrowhawk as I put it together, and I gotta tell you it works great, the little bugger is solid enough to withstand a fall to the ground (the rest of the airship however...) at some point soon I'll superglue the propellers and housings as well. My models don't tend to come off their wires often, but just in case... (magnet mounted after all).
:cheers:

[zoomar]

My photo is still on the "new member..." thread I started a while back. I used simple grey paper. It only marginally shows the hangar interior, with sketched-on girders. I made no serious attempt to model the monorail or crew catwalks. only vaguely followed illustrations in Smiths' "Akron and Macon" to do this...mostly it was merely to enclose the area.

[Digger]

Ok, Here's a goodie for anyone who has not yet built the Macon. Or for anyone whose plane didn't look right. I've seen several complaints about having to color some pieces by hand, and I too think that it's a shortcoming for this model. so heres my fix for that. Print on plain paper, not cardstock, and print at actual size, do not adjust to fit. I would have preffered to upload a single file, but the size limit of the board prevented that, as theyr'e high resolution for printing. Also be sure to color the lower wing and the lower surface of the upper wing silver (use a colored pencil, Prismacolor makes a perfect silver pencil, find at an art or craft store). I may do some recolors of the plane if anyone is interested, as several pictures I've seen have slightly different markings. maybe populate the Hangar bay with them. Ok enuff rambling. Here you are. :cheers:

[zoomar]

Really good. But the plane would still have been much better if professionally printed in color by the manufacturer. You had the same problem with the plane's insignia I did...it's so small that any colored pencil just ends up producing a blue, white and red glob

[46rob]

Thanks--I had plannned to do this myself--now I can concentrate on build.

BTW--we've got a Sparrowhawk, here at the Naval Aviation Museum, along with a pretty decent LTA section.

[Digger]

Is that in Pensacola? I'm in FL too so the trip would be worth it.
Glad I could help, thats why I did it.

[Paul Adams]

I undestsand that the Sparrowhawk is to be returned to the Smithsonian so it can be displayed at the new facility.

That is a shame because the new facility was a complete disapointment when I visited it, while on the other hand the Naval museum in Pensacola is superb.

Paul

[zoomar]

Actually, for LTA fans, the NASM pretty much went downhill when they eliminated the lighter-than-air gallery which an original part of the museum on the mall. That had the F9C, the Hindenburg gondola and full model from the George C Scott movie, and several really nice models of rigid airships (one of which I seem to remember was a cut-away USS Macon. But nothing beats the Zeppelin Museum in Friedrichschafen, which has a full-size replication of 1/2 the passenger quarters in the Hindenburg and tons of artifacts and models. Here, in fact is a pic of yours truly in the dining room

[Digger]

Hey guys, just finished this one a few minutes ago. It's the JSC model of the L-48, 1:400 scale. Im really happy with this one, the seams are mostly invisible (thanks to taking the time to color the edges), and I modified it to include the forward machine gun nest. That took a bit of tinkering to get right, and I still think the machine guns are a bit too big, but close enough for me. It only took me three days for this one, and most of yesterday was spent getting the machine gun nest put together. I think I'm getting better at this, so hopefully soon I may feel ready to tackle the Hindenburg...well maybe a few more first. :cheers:

My airship armada grows larger still! MWUAHAHAHA!...oh...

[Bengt Fred]

Digger,

You have done a marvelous job of this one - what did you use to color the seams? The overall appearance is very good.
And the mg nest is very realistic with the two guns mounted on turrets.

You have quite a fleet now - impressive!
My Graf Zeppelin is sill not finished . . .

Best,
Bengt :cheers:

[zoomar]

Wow, Digger, you just keep churning these out! The L-49 looks outstanding and the MG nest is great. Do you have time to eat and sleep? Is that the JSC L-59 behind it in one pic? Was it as good?

[Digger]

Thanks guys, to answer ; used colored pencil and a sharpie for the seams, the colored pencil did a great job as it looks exactly like the ink on the paper, the sharpie I had to use on a few pieces that still showed after assembling (the nacelles and control car).
Yes thats the L-59 behind it, theres a pic of it in a previous post if you wanna take a look. as for eating and sleeping...well sometimes you just hafta build zeppelins..:D

[Digger]

It's been awhile since this thread has been active, but alas I'm near completion of the L-13 (LZ-45) from Schreiber. This is a very detailed model, and as such I have been taking my time to do it right. I'm 'super-detailing' this one, in the attached pic you can see one of the exhaust pipes added to the rear gondola, as well as the engine telegraph (sorta blurry) and the ladder. Most of today was spent with my scanner, and Photoshop, making a bunch of new parts for detailing the control gondola; telegraphs, ballast sheet (to cover up the obnoxious map at the elevator station), radio equipment, ballast controls, bomb control and sighting system, oil coolers, etc. hopefully (as my mood permits), I will finish it over the next couple of days, then post some more pics of the details and such.
Oh, and I'll upload the parts sheet, too, for anyone who's interested in detailing theirs.:cheers:

[McTodd]

What magnificent work, Digger! :cheers:

[sobrien]

Digger,
I'd love a copy of your detail sheets. My L13 is waiting in the wings, I'm starting on the 1/500 scale R-100 plastic kit.

Sean

[zoomar]

Outstanding! Creative! Resourceful!
What more to say, other than you have made an already excellent kit that much better

[MPL]

Kudos to digger for the great superdetailing on the L13 model.

The Macon kit was published by Hathaway in the US. Fit and finish of parts is OK but not great, and it really looks to me like they produced the model by using a copy machine and silverized paper. That would explain the lack of preprinted color parts. I'm not sure how old the design is, but judging from the lettering and very inconsistent line weights I think it was all hand-drawn.

The Hathaway Hindenburg model was produced the same way, but the parts fit together a lot better and I was much more pleased with the finished result.

[Kaiser Willie]

Nice job on the L-13..I have a bunch of models i want to start but i want to try and blow them up to HO scale. I could really use the detaile sheet. Thanks

[Digger]

Ok, finished the control gondola today, (mostly, I still intend to put the antenna insulator on, with the antenna). heres some pics.

[Digger]

And here is the parts sheet.
Print on cardstock, at actual size, not to fit. Some parts will be easier to assemble if you use a lighter card, such as 65 Lb.
Most of these pieces are self explanatory, just refer to the pics in the last post. However some are not.
The Crankcase vents are staggered apart by a couple of mm, the frontmost one needs to be trimmed by about a third of its length.
There are four radio pieces, the two that I used are the brownish sets, which are an earlier set. Glue the radios to two other layers of card, cut out and color the edges.
There are two ballast sheets, mostly because of printer quality, use either if it looks ok.
There are two different bomb sights, and one bomb control box next to them. Use whichever one you'd like. The one with the circular base is glued over a window (seen in pic). Glue the eyepiece over the line on the top of the base.
The parachutes are included without reference, as I'm only going to put them at the upper gun platform on my model, just cut out the shape, and try to get the slightly rouded shape. These can be placed under the MG positions in both gondolas, and on the side of the upper gun platform.
The ballast controls are gonna be tricky. I ended up just cutting the pulls off, and using thread stiffened with superglue. I recommend the same.
There are four oil coolers on the sheet, one for each engine, however I have yet to see a picture of the rear gondola wich shows them. To the best of my knowledge the oil cooler only appears on the contol car (as do the crankcase vents, except in the height climbers, and later zepps).
The antenna insulator is in three parts. If you have a steady hand glue them one atop the other (make sure you punch a hole for the antenna before cutting), otherwise just use the single piece (the largest). At 1:200 scale, the fully extended antennae would be 39.6 cm long. No matter how long you make the antennae (use silver or grey thread), tie a double knot in the hanging end, to simulate the weight.
If there are any questions, let me know and I'll clarify further. :cheers:

[Digger]

Finally done wih the L-13! It came out beauiful, and I'm glad I took the extra time, and effort to detail it further. I may still add the spahkorb, not sure yet, but otherwise I'm done. I't's really the little details that made this one so rewarding, like the curl of the flag, the rigging, and so forth. Anyway, here's a few pics for your viewing pleasure.:cheers:

[Kaiser Willie]

Super Job. I always have more imagination than skills and so im kicking around Ideas like using cast and etched parts. Maybe printing some of the stuff on decal paper and putting them on sheet styrene. Keep up the good work!

[Digger]

If you'd like to try casting parts, and learning new techniques, theres a book for theatre prop builders (unfortunately the name escapes me) that would be very useful. You might try the local library, or an amazon search.:cheers:

[Kaiser Willie]

I found some good stuff on the net from guys who scratch build Sci Fi stuff. They do a lot of vacume forming and molding too. The is a good site that deals with scratch building WW1 airplane models that looks helpfull. Makes since sine airships used a lot of the same materials and they are from the same era. Modeling canvas and rigging and such would be the same.

[McTodd]

If you'd like to try casting parts, and learning new techniques, theres a book for theatre prop builders (unfortunately the name escapes me) that would be very useful.
If you mean Thurston James's The Prop Builder's Molding & Casting Handbook, it's an excellent publication in many ways, but I'm not sure how useful it is for modelmakers. As the title indicates, it's really for full-scale props which don't have to be ultra-detailed.

Far more useful would be to do some diligent searching on the web for information specifically aimed at modelmakers. If you're thinking of making moulds and casting resin, here are some excellent links:

http://www.childofmecha.com/Modeling/Resin/Basics/BasicResin.html

http://www.nigellawton009.com/Resin_Casting_for_Beginners---The_Sequel---Version_2.htm

http://p197.ezboard.com/Mold-Making/fatomiccityfrm38.showMessage?topicID=3.topic

[Charles Adams]

Very nice work! I actually have this kit, ordered it with the LZ-4 but they were out of stock so I never got the other one. It looks like a nice kit, may have to give it a try. . . :)

[MPL]

Hot rumor from the Fiddler's Green paper model forum: Hindenburg and Macon are in the works. No word on scale, price, timeframe, etc. - only that designs are on the schedule.

The design crew at FG is top-notch, so if there are airships en route, expect them to be fairly easy to build, well drawn, and not terribly expensive. And probably big.

[Charles Adams]

One of our own members was working on a paper model of the Macon. Hmmm. . . :)

[kc5pse]

I hate to pass on bad news guys but PMI is going out of business. The following was posted on their website in Feb, 2009.
http://www.papermodels.net/catupdate.html

[wag]

I wanted to expand on what Digger did so I got busy with Photoshop and created the whole airgroup. I hope you like them.
Wayne

[wag]

airgroup page 2